Philias: Cuckolding Is More Than Just Cheating

“Cuck” is way more than an internet insult. In this episode of Taboo Science, we’re stepping out and diving in to cuckolding, the real-life kink and lifestyle all about the thrill of your partner sleeping with someone else. Join us as we chat with clinical psychologist Dr. David Ley and popular cuckolding podcaster Venus Cuckoldress, who shed light on the psychological quirks and deep emotional connections in this often misunderstood practice. We’re also breaking down how it all plays into the complicated dynamics of race, power, and gender. If you’re curious to understand a taboo that’s reshaping how some people view relationships and empowerment, give it a listen. Let’s get into why cuckolding is having a major moment right now and what it could mean for you.

Resources from Dr. David Ley:

Resources from Venus Cuckoldress:

Citations and further reading:

TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Ashley: It seems like everyone’s calling everyone a cuck these days. If you’d assumed this was a new insult made up by trolls on 4chan just a few years ago, You’d only be half right. The full word is cuckold, and it’s old. It dates back to the 13th century, back when English was barely recognizable as the vehicle now used for distinguished phrasing like pussy in bio.

[00:00:29] Ashley: Cuckold refers to a man whose wife is sleeping with another man. The ultimate emasculation, a sign that the husband can’t satisfy his wife sexually. Not to mention, exert the control over her behavior that was literally required by law back in the day. Plus, a cheating wife might get pregnant, forcing her husband to raise children that aren’t his without even knowing it.

[00:00:53] Ashley: It was the ultimate male anxiety. So, cuckold was a popular term in the Middle Ages and the early modern period. Chaucer, Shakespeare, and even German and Italian authors used it a lot. But, as norms changed, as gender roles became looser, as birth control got better, things relaxed a little bit, and we forgot about it.

[00:01:16] Ashley: Cuckold faded into obscurity. But then, The internet. With the rise of streaming video came an explosion in the kinds of porn available, including cuckolding porn, where the turn on came from a husband being degraded by his wife’s infidelity. That brought cuckolding back into the popular consciousness, but Where 4chan and other right wing corners of the internet got a hold of it, shortened it to cuck, and started throwing it around as an insult for anyone who didn’t think like them.

[00:01:46] Ashley: Anyone who considered the other side or apologized for their missteps. During the US election in 2016, cuck servitive was even coined for conservatives who opposed Donald Trump. However, away from the insults and the politics, there’s a large group of people who take cuckolding seriously. and do it on purpose.

[00:02:08] Ashley: For some people, the anxiety and humiliation of cuckolding is a serious turn on. And for others, there’s no humiliation in it at all, just a feeling of power and a satisfaction in giving their partner a new experience. And it’s worth mentioning that plenty of them are conservative. Today, we’re learning what makes a person want their partner to step out on them, what it does for them, and how it affects the relationship.

[00:02:35] Ashley: I’m Ashley Hamer and this is Taboo Science, the podcast that answers the questions you’re not allowed to ask.

[00:03:02] Ashley: As we’ve established, cuckolding is anything but new. In fact, it’s so ingrained in our culture that you, dear listener, may have even done something that originated in that middle age’s anxiety over becoming a cuckold.

[00:03:15] David Ley: You know how in pictures people be silly and they put up fingers behind somebody else’s head, right?

[00:03:22] David Ley: Oh, it’s bunny ears. No, it’s not bunny ears. It’s an ancient sign that you’re a cuckold.

[00:03:29] Ashley: That’s Dr. David Ley.

[00:03:31] David Ley: I’m a clinical psychologist and a sex therapist. I’m based in Albuquerque, New Mexico. And I have sort of an interesting career. Day job as a traditional psychologist running a large mental health organization.

[00:03:42] David Ley: And years ago I started working with alternative sexuality issues. And I ended up writing my first book called Insatiable Wives, Women Who Stray and Men Who Love Them about cuckolding and hotwifing and the psychology of it. And that really, you know, kind of catapulted me onto this interesting career where now I do training and speaking and writing and therapy around the world around sexuality issues.

[00:04:08] Ashley: There’s one key difference between the cuckolding of yesteryear and the cuckolding of today, though. There’s And that difference is consent.

[00:04:16] David Ley: Now it is men typically who go to their wives and say, Hey, I think it’d be really hot to see you with another man. And they use the term cuckolding. They call it cuckolding, but it’s different because it’s consensual.

[00:04:31] David Ley: And it has become, um, a lifestyle, you know, kind of like swinging. It’s a form of consensual non monogamy, but different from swinging, different from polyamory. Cuckolding is primarily focused on the wife having recreational sex with other men, and typically the husband is monogamous to the wife.

[00:05:00] David Ley: And remember how I mentioned that some people are in it for the humiliation and others are in it for the power? Those two subsets have different names. Cuckolding specifically is usually centered on the humiliation and submissiveness elements.

[00:05:14] David Ley: Where cuckolding oftentimes involves some forms of submissiveness by the husband, oftentimes humiliation, sometimes humiliation for their penis size, small penis humiliation, which is another fetish, can come in here, Um, sometimes there’s forced bisexuality, sometimes it can involve some pretty explicit, you know, kind of BDSM kind of submissiveness.

[00:05:39] David Ley: Those elements are not present in hotwifing.

[00:05:43] Ashley: Hotwifing. Like, look how hot my wife is, I bet you’d like to enjoy a night with her.

[00:05:49] David Ley: Which looks a bit more like swinging, but is more focused on the husband sharing the wife with other men, and typically the husband participating.

[00:05:59] Ashley: The wife in these scenarios is often called the cuckoldress, but not always.

[00:06:04] David Ley: There’s even a new term called stag vixen, which people are embracing and saying, oh, you know, the husband saying, I’m not a humiliated cuckold, I’m a stag, and I love sharing my vixen hot wife with other men.

[00:06:20] Venus Cuckoldress: There’s definitely, like, different paths where people fall onto the doorstep of cuckolding. Definitely very different paths.

[00:06:28] Ashley: That is Venus Cuckoldress, host of the Venus Cuckoldress podcast, which shares tips and advice about how to get into and how to make the most out of a cuckolding relationship. She’s also the founder of Venus Connections, cuckolding relationship, which seems to be the only one of its kind.

[00:06:47] Venus Cuckoldress: It’s usually something that begins with a couple who’ve been together for a very long time and they could start with swinging and then the guy realizes, oh, I just actually really like watching my wife. Like, I don’t, I’m not really interested in these other women. That’s a lot of the time where this comes from.

[00:07:05] Venus Cuckoldress: There’s the other path, which is through the Kink BDSM door. And so that’s where this is part of, uh, like a list of other kinks and fetishes and things like that, that somebody’s interested in. Um, or this kind of falls into the sexual denial and tease and denial and humiliation part of kink. And so therefore that’s where the door that they take to land on cuckolding.

[00:07:32] Ashley: You may have noticed that all of this is exclusively about what a straight partnered man wants. We’ll get into other genders and orientations in a second, but it’s worth mentioning that straight men are far and away the most likely to be into cuckolding because of gendered expectations about how a man should be, what he should want, and how he should behave.

[00:07:54] Ashley: Flipping those expectations is taboo, and that’s often what makes it hot.

[00:07:59] David Ley: It is men seeking escape from the burden of having to maintain this rigid, macho identity that is work and sometimes doesn’t feel natural. You know, the real man is the guy whose wife isn’t cheating on him and would never cheat on him because she doesn’t need another man.

[00:08:24] David Ley: He can satisfy her. And that’s a lot of work sometimes. And so it’s not by accident that cuckolding as a fantasy in men appears most common in communities and cultures with very rigid gender stereotypes. Cuckolding appears to be one of the more common fantasies in conservatives in the United States.

[00:08:50] David Ley: Cuckolding is quite popular as a fantasy in more macho countries with rigid gender stereotypes like Brazil, Italy, Russia. You know, the more taboo you make something, the more exciting that thing becomes for some people. And so for some people, the idea of giving up being the macho man whose wife would never cheat on him becomes pretty sexy.

[00:09:21] Ashley: If you’ve listened to the BDSM episode, you might be having the same a ha moment that I am. Wait. In egalitarian countries where women have more power, women want to give up power in the bedroom. And now you’re telling me that in countries where men have all the power? Men want to give up power in the bedroom?

[00:09:39] Ashley: Humans are really complex, but boy are we predictable in some important ways. But what about the humiliation aspect? That’s also a big element in BDSM, and this series hasn’t really investigated where that kink comes from. And as you’d expect, there are a lot of different places it might come from.

[00:09:59] David Ley: There’s no easy answer. This is human psychology and sexuality, so there’s a million different answers, right? Human sexuality is highly overdetermined and multiply influenced.

[00:10:11] Ashley: Overdetermined means there are more causes than would be necessary to cause and effect. Multiply influenced means there are many interacting causes.

[00:10:19] Ashley: Put another way, the reasons behind human sexuality are a big old mess.

[00:10:24] David Ley: But all that said, some of the best kind of explanations or reasons that I see,

[00:10:30] David Ley: one is people get to experience something that they think they can’t survive, and then they survive it.

[00:10:47] Ashley: Like a horror movie, sort of.

[00:10:49] David Ley: Yeah, yeah, that’s a good, yeah, or riding a rollercoaster kind of thing. Yeah, it’s funny because I see men that have average size penises, or even large penises, Really enjoy small penis humiliation.

[00:11:02] David Ley: And it’s like, what the fuck? What the fuck is going on here, right? Well, my argument as a psychologist getting inside these guys brains, right, is that they have internalized the, the idea or belief that being shamed for having a small penis is the worst possible thing in the world. That being a man with a small penis means you’re not masculine enough and not manly enough.

[00:11:27] David Ley: And that is horrifying. And then they experience it, and survive it, and overcome it, and find that it’s not the end of the world. And They get to give up trying so hard.

[00:11:48] Venus Cuckoldress: For some guys who I talked to, their origin story is from an instance where their partner, she did cheat on him and he did find out about it.

[00:11:57] Venus Cuckoldress: And at first he was devastated, but then oddly very turned on by it and wanted all the details about it. And that can be such a weird thing for guys to process in their mind. Cause they’re like, I shouldn’t. be turned on by this. Why am I turned on by this? This makes no sense. But that’s how some guys do realize like, I actually am into this.

[00:12:20] Venus Cuckoldress: And I don’t know if it’s just eroticizing your deepest fears, but like, it is that that’s where the angst comes from, too. Because it’s just like this does feel wrong and this very taboo, but it’s also very hot.

[00:12:34] Ashley: So that’s a reason for some people. Humiliation play can give you a chance to experience your fears in a safe, controlled environment so you can realize they’re not that bad.

[00:12:44] Ashley: There’s also a theory that humiliation is a way to escape your own self awareness. Just as cuckolding can be a way for powerful men to let go of some of that power, humiliation in general can be a way for people to let go of worrying about their self image, maintaining their dignity, and controlling how other people see them.

[00:13:03] Ashley: Makes you wonder if celebrities and social media influencers have higher rates of humiliation kinks, right? Another part of the appeal of humiliation came up in my conversation with BDSM educator Lena Dune. She plays with cuckolding in her own BDSM scenes, and the humiliation aspect is a big plus for her.

[00:13:22] Lina Dune: For me, there are scenes where I’ll be left out and I’ll be like, Yeah, I really want to be left out of this. And I want to hear why she’s better than me and why you’re never going to touch me again. And that’s how it plays out for me. And the way that that really feels is yes, I’m definitely eroticizing those feelings of shame.

[00:13:42] Lina Dune: But then I also feel very seen actually by my partner because, you know, you can’t really Be humiliated and played with in that way without someone really seeing and understanding you and caring about you and not taking it too far. I’ve heard people say that humiliation can feel more heartwarming than praise because like, we’ve all heard the praise words, but if you know the word that makes me feel, you know, kind of exposed that is more on the humiliation side of things, you’re like, oh wow, okay, you really know me, you really see me, I get it.

[00:14:12] Ashley: You might notice that Lena is not a straight cis man, and yet she’s into being a cuckold. How common is it for the gender roles to be reversed in this?

[00:14:22] David Ley: There is a flavor of non monogamy that, uh, is focused on the wife being monogamous and encouraging the husband to be with other men. Sometimes other men, but usually other women.

[00:14:35] David Ley: And it’s called Cuckqueening, although it’s spelled in an interesting way. You would think it would be C U C K Q U E E N I N G, but it’s Q U E A N I N G, and I have no earthly idea why. Um, I’m sure that there’s an interesting etymological reason, and somebody out there can, can find it and send it to me.

[00:14:57] Ashley: Hi, Dr. Ley. Long time listener, first time caller, and I figured out why it’s spelled that way. I have to say, my first assumption was that it was because the non monogamy community just loves coming up with new words. See, compersion. But it’s actually much, much, much older than that. Like, it’s almost as old as the word cuckolding itself.

[00:15:18] Ashley: That spelling of queen is from Middle English, and refers to a low woman, a harlot or hussy, basically the opposite of Q U E E N. So in the 15th century, people started saying cuck queen to mean a lowly woman whose husband was cheating on her. And there you have it!

[00:15:37] David Ley: Justin Lehmiller has done some research around this for his book called Tell Me What You Want About Sexual Fantasies and he found about 45 percent of men, um, report a fantasy of seeing their wife or girlfriend with other men.

[00:15:48] David Ley: So it’s extremely common. Cuckweening in w yeah. Cuckweening in women seems far, far, far, far less, less common.

[00:15:58] Venus Cuckoldress: From what I’ve, like, my experience and what I’ve come across, I think I’m only in the last Almost a decade come across two women who identified as a Cuck Queen. That’s not to say that there aren’t more women out there, but I just don’t feel like there’s a lot of spaces for them online where they feel like this is for me.

[00:16:21] David Ley: You know, there are probably some evolutionary reasons playing into this. Certainly, I think that there are social and cultural reasons playing into that. Um, a lot of the women that go into cuckolding are oftentimes afraid to do so for fear of slut shaming. Because again, remember, women that were exposed to engaging in cuckolding historically, um, were horrifically punished.

[00:16:43] David Ley: One reason I think women would be, uh, you know, certainly loathe to encourage cuck queening, um, would be fear of losing their husband, of course.

[00:16:52] Ashley: This makes sense. If there’s an actual risk of something happening, it’s not going to be hot for you. And studies show that men do cheat slightly more often than women, though that’s becoming less true with younger generations.

[00:17:04] Ashley: But also, women historically have had a lot more to lose by losing their husbands than husbands have by losing their wives. In single breadwinner households, your husband is kind of your lifeline. That’s less common these days, but not by much. In 2011, just 15 percent of households with children had the mother as the primary provider.

[00:17:26] David Ley: One of my supervisees, a lady named Carolyn Lee, she did an informal study of cuck cleaning that she’s still working on writing up for a project, and one of the things that I encouraged her to look at was, are women doing it because it turns them on? Or are women letting their husband have sex with other women because they feel like if they don’t, their husband would leave them, right?

[00:17:54] David Ley: So is this kind of a devil’s bargain sort of thing? And it doesn’t appear so. The women that she was able to interview that are engaging in cuckqueening are doing so specifically because it is hot for them.

[00:18:07] Ashley: If there are cuckqueens listening, I want you to know that I believe in you. You are not Bigfoot, and I know you exist.

[00:18:15] Ashley: But it just seems like women are not asking their husbands to step out on them nearly as much as husbands are asking their wives to.

[00:18:23] Ashley: \When we come back, we’re talking about whether gay men are into cuckolding, what the other two people in this arrangement get out of it, and how to get started, if you want to.

[00:18:32] Ashley: Stay tuned.

[00:18:43] Ashley: Okay, so what about people who aren’t straight? In 2008, Dan Savage wrote in his legendary sex advice column, Savage Love, that gay men don’t have cuckolding fantasies because there’s no risk of their partner getting pregnant with another man’s child. When some other guy is doing, say, my boyfriend or being done by him, it doesn’t necessarily mean I’m being violated, humiliated, kicked out of my own bed, etc. It usually just means I’m having a three way, end quote.

[00:19:13] Ashley: Well, tons of gay men wrote in to say that they themselves actually did have a cuckolding fantasy. And Dr. Ley and Dr. Justin Lehmiller, who you’ll hear on a future episode, collaborated with Dan Savage to find data on this. First, via porn. Turns out that it was a kink on the rise.

[00:19:32] Ashley: Searches for cuckold on Pornhub pages featuring gay male material nearly doubled from 2014 to 2016. When the researchers asked gay men about their cuckolding fantasies, they were different than those of straight men. Much less focus on the size of the other man’s penis, much more interest in being there in the room to watch.

[00:19:52] Ashley: So. There is some diversity of gender and orientation here, despite the fact that we have and will continue to mostly refer to husband cuckolds and their wives.

[00:20:03] Ashley: But what about those wives? What did they get out of it?

[00:20:07] Ashley: Take it from someone who absolutely loves it. Venus started out in the world of swinging as a solo woman, a unicorn, and she had a lot of fun. But there were a lot of rules that didn’t quite do it for her.

[00:20:20] Venus Cuckoldress: So for a few years there, I was just like, well, I’m screwed. Like, there’s, I’m never going to find what I think I want because that’s too selfish. There’s no guy that’s going to sign up for that. And then I was on Tinder and this guy I had on my profile, I don’t want monogamy.

[00:20:37] Venus Cuckoldress: And he must have been like, Oh, she might be open to this kind of relationship. He didn’t bring it up right away. He was asking me about my different partners and experiences and stuff like that. And then he sort of slowly brought it up to me. And I was in disbelief. I was like, What are you talking about?

[00:20:55] Venus Cuckoldress: This sounds like way too good to be true. This actually exists? I had no idea. So we started dating and oh my god, was it ever fun. Like, I was just like, this is the relationship for me. It was, it was almost like I felt like, what fit me? And I’m like, this is exactly what I want.

[00:21:16] Ashley: And it’s not just Venus.

[00:21:17] Ashley: She’s seen tons of relationships blossom from this dynamic. And a lot of the time, it’s because it’s a much bigger benefit to the woman than either person realized.

[00:21:34] Venus Cuckoldress: Guys who have, you know, ventured into this with their wife and witnessed her explore her sexuality with other people, they say one of the most unexpected benefits for them, for the guy, has been being able to witness that. Being able to witness her actually have this renewed self confidence and this sexual prowess and like just watching her blossom as this incredible sexual woman and they get to witness that and they are just in awe.

[00:22:08] Venus Cuckoldress: This ends up really as a celebration of her sexuality instead of the you know, oppression or jealousy of her sexuality. This is a celebration. He is witnessing her have this joy and he’s feeling joy. And so they didn’t realize that. The women didn’t realize that. The guys didn’t realize that. But this is what it becomes.

[00:22:30] David Ley: One woman, she said, when another man tells me that I’m hot and he wants to have sex with me, it really makes me feel really good about myself. And I said, and that doesn’t work that way when your husband says it. And she says, no, that’s his job. He’s supposed to say that. But when another man says it, it’s real, right?

[00:22:52] David Ley: She also said, though, she described that At one point, her daughter, her teenage daughter came to her and said, you know, Mom, something’s different because you’re acting so confident and you’re assertive in a way that I’ve never seen you before. And the wife did not tell the daughter, Oh yeah, it’s cause I’m having sex with all these other guys.

[00:23:18] David Ley: But the daughter saw. That this had become a place of empowerment for the wife that her mother had never had.

[00:23:40] Ashley: There’s a third group of people involved in this dynamic who we haven’t talked about yet. The other guy, or what the cuckolding community calls the bull. This is where things can get tricky.

[00:23:51] David Ley: Cuckold couples have told me that they actually have trouble finding guys that they can trust enough to have sex with the wife because they need a guy that is trustworthy enough to treat the wife well.

[00:24:06] David Ley: and to respect their marriage. But a lot of guys that would treat the wife well and respect their marriage don’t want to poach on the marriage because that feels unethical, right? So it’s a dilemma. The couples have to work to find guys that they can share the wife with and have it be a positive experience.

[00:24:29] David Ley: And so there’s a lot of dialogue about that within these communities.

[00:24:33] Venus Cuckoldress: People fail to understand, like, the bull is actually a big part of this and, and not just somebody to step in and do this sexual act. Like, a bull is someone who enjoys it and gets as excited about it as I do about being a cuckoldress.

[00:24:50] Venus Cuckoldress: Like, that is somebody who, who really loves this dynamic. They really enjoy being part of this dynamic within couples. and they know how to kind of get to know each dynamic that each couple has, which is so unique and play with that and sometimes push boundaries if they consent..

[00:25:10] Ashley: But there’s another quality that many couples, especially couples in the U. S., look for in a bull. And that is his race.

[00:25:19] David Ley: There’s a lot of fantasy about the white wife being with Black men. Some folks have expressed concern that this is racism. It is, in my opinion, an expression of the racial taboo and racial conflict in our culture. I think if we lived in a society that wasn’t struggling with racism, people wouldn’t be fantasizing about it.

[00:25:40] Venus Cuckoldress: So this was something that my first cuck boyfriend brought up when I was looking for partners for bulls. And he was like, well, what about a black guy? And where I live, there’s just not very many of them.

[00:25:51] Ashley: Venus lives in Vancouver, Canada, where the black population is less than 2%.

[00:25:56] Venus Cuckoldress: And I’ve had great experiences with Black men before, so I was like, okay, this sounds like a great opportunity to, and so this was way back when Craigslist Personals was a thing.

[00:26:06] Venus Cuckoldress: So I put an ad on there, and it was great. I actually came up with some excellent partners. So that was something that I became interested in, in the beginning, but it wasn’t really like, part of any humiliation kind of teasing or anything like that. It was just, I really enjoyed the experiences that I’d had.

[00:26:24] Venus Cuckoldress: And so I wanted to have that again. It wasn’t until I started blogging and podcasting that I realized in the United States, this is a really big thing. And it does tie in with the humiliation teasing part for some couples. For some couples, this is about the taboo of a black guy you. being intimate with a white woman.

[00:26:45] Venus Cuckoldress: And so I was just like, really? Like, I didn’t know. I didn’t know about that part of it. And then I started to learn about what’s called race play and BDSM and what that is all about.

[00:26:57] Ashley: Venus has had several Black Bulls on her podcast who really enjoy race play and the dynamics of being with white couples. I’ll link to those episodes in the show notes.

[00:27:06] Venus Cuckoldress: And then I started to understand the appeal of it, but when it originates from a very racist point, I really don’t like that, and I don’t think that’s a very good part of this kind of lifestyle to see. I especially don’t like it when people treat black bulls like they’re not human beings.

[00:27:32] Venus Cuckoldress: Like they are just a body part to use. And that pisses me off hugely. It makes me really mad. We have definitely, there’s room for improvement within the lifestyle and that’s one of them.

[00:27:47] David Ley: Another one of my supervisees, Tammy Fisher, did a study of the experiences of Black men in cuckolding relationships.

[00:27:56] David Ley: And so these are men that kind of their hobby is to be a bull and to go out and have sex with white wives. There’s a Oftentimes a lot of concern that these men are being exploited and stigmatized and treated in in inappropriate or non consensual racial ways. And what Tammy found was that by and large, most of these men experience it in very positive ways.

[00:28:22] David Ley: They don’t have negative experiences. And in what I thought was one of the most fascinating findings, The men reported that they very often saw white couples become less racist through the process of sharing the wife with black men. Because they, they started to develop a relationship with these black men and they started to view the men as human being.

[00:28:52] David Ley: And, uh, Some of them even reported that they saw these white couples go from being these pretty conservative, remember conservative background, being these pretty conservative folks with kind of racial attitudes, now becoming involved in anti racism activities because they have learned to care about these black men through the process of really hot sex.

[00:29:18] Ashley: This is also not the first time we’ve heard this. In the BDSM episode, Lena Dune mentioned professional dominatrixes, sex workers, who are some of the most vulnerable members of society, and they work with their white male clients on their misogyny, racism, and dismantling their privilege. Sex and kink are intimate acts, and they can be a chance to be intimate with a kind of person you hardly ever encounter in your day to day life.

[00:29:44] Ashley: Who knew that kink could save the world?

[00:29:59] Ashley: So, if this dynamic appeals to you, how do you get started? Both Dr. Ley and Venus said the same thing. Go slow.

[00:30:10] David Ley: This can be such an exciting fantasy and so energizing and compelling that it can be really easy. to jump in over your head.

[00:30:26] Venus Cuckoldress: I think there’s this pressure that couples feel where they have to, like it’s not cuckolding unless she actually sleeps with somebody else.

[00:30:32] Venus Cuckoldress: I would say 90 percent of the fun of this kind of relationship is not me sleeping with another guy. Most of the fun is that kind of like little game that you play with your partner where you’re talking about it, where you’re flirting around with it and you’re, you’re having fun with it. So if you’re If you’re a new couple and you’re like, this is fun, this is great, don’t be pressured to actually do something in person.

[00:31:02] David Ley: For couples that want to explore this, they need to tiptoe into the water. This sounds like shameless self promotion, but one of the ways that couples tiptoe into this is by getting the audio book of my book, Insatiable Wives, and going on a road trip together and listening to it. And then using it as an opportunity to talk with each other about how they feel or their reactions or what they think is sexy and exciting about it.

[00:31:34] Ashley: And if you find yourself struggling with these feelings, know that you’re perfectly okay.

[00:31:40] Venus Cuckoldress: Cucks are not weak. Cucks are very strong. Emotionally strong. And they are so loved, just the way that they are. There’s so much shame that guys are carrying. Because of this, they’re so embarrassed about being into this.

[00:31:59] Venus Cuckoldress: They feel like it’s a curse. They hate themselves for it. One minute, they love it. They’re very turned on by it. And the next minute, they’re like, Oh, I feel awful about myself about though. I don’t want to be into this. Why can’t I be into some other kind of fetish or fantasy? There’s this self hatred going on with a lot of these guys out there who are fantasizing about this and want this and that’s really shitty.

[00:32:25] Venus Cuckoldress: And my aim is to let people know like, Hey, Cucks are amazing. They are the best partners that you could ever want. Like they’re selfless, like they’re generous and they’re trusting and like, and they’re just amazing human beings. And. If everybody understood that, I feel like the guys who are really struggling with themselves for liking this might start to accept themselves and that’s ultimately what I hope would happen.

[00:33:04] Ashley: Thanks for listening. My deepest gratitude to Dr. David Leigh and Venus Cuckoldress. Dr. Ley’s book is Insatiable Wives, Women Who Stray and the Men Who Love Them. He especially recommends the audiobook. Which is narrated by Rose Caraway, an erotica writer who is also known as the sexy librarian.

[00:33:23] Ashley: Venus Cuckoldress’s podcast is the Venus Cuckoldress Podcast, and you can find that at venuscuckoldress.com or wherever you found this podcast. Her cuckold matchmaking service is called Venus Connections, and it’s at venus connections.com.

[00:33:40] Ashley: Taboo Science is written and produced by me, Ashley Hamer. The theme song is by Danny Lopatka of DLC Music. Episode music is from Epidemic Sound.

[00:33:50] Ashley: I would love to see more reviews of this podcast. If you have a minute to spare, please leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, and I might read it on the show.

[00:33:59] Ashley: One that warmed my heart recently was from arosmar, who wrote, Heard of the show and decided to give one episode a listen. Then another, then another. I binged every single episode over a long weekend and now eagerly await every new episode. The number of times I’ve had my opinions changed on beliefs I held deeply from listening to this show is a testament to the content, quality, and effort put into it.

[00:34:24] Ashley: Thank you so much for an awesome review, arosmar.

[00:34:28] Ashley: The next episode may be the tabooist yet. We’re diving into the controversial world of zoophilia. Hope you tune in. I won’t tell anyone.